Sex in Orthodoxy
I've been pondering sexual views within Orthodoxy as of late, particularly those revolving around the needs and desires of women. I found it so exciting to see from a Torah/Talmudic view that sex is seen as something not only sacred, but pleasurable as well. A lot of societies pretend that women don't have equal desire for physical affection as men, or at least modest women don't.
A lot of my confusion is stemmed by modesty, propriety, even etiquette. I was taught etiquette to make others comfortable, to entertain, to show my gratitude-not to live a modest life. I don't know how you actually view things, because sex is a very private subject in the Orthodox world. I'm not ashamed of my sexuality, but being that I'm not able to date, I feel uncomfortable asking my rebbitzen direct questions. I'm sure she would wonder why I was thinking about sex when it wasn't a part of my imminent future. I think I'm trying to prepare myself for this life.
Becoming Jewish and living within the community revolves around so much more than Parsha and Hebrew classes. Every law and mitzvah are important, and it's necessary for me to learn such things, figure out where they fit into my life, how I will facillitate what Hashem asks of me. So, along with my studies on Jewish theology and history, there are a zillion other things I have to master, like keeping laws of kashrut. I may not be able to have shabbos guests for quite some time (some people may never trust my kitchen) but I still need to prepare a kosher kithcen for the benefit of my family, and so I will be able to welcome guests in the future. I see my questioning about dating/marriage/sex in the same way. No, I'm not doing any of those things now. But, the time will come when I will be able to date, and I wish to be prepared. I want to know how my views fit in, so that I can, G-D willing, make a really good decision about a husband. If I'm dating and the man asks me specific questions about my expectations or how I will handle certain things, I wish to be able to answer them in a way that is true to my nature.
So, I've read how wonderful sex is within the context of marriage. My mother taught me the same. That I should always be a lady, but that I shouldn't feel shameful about being with my husband in any way-that nice girls do enjoy sex, and that there was nothing wrong with having desire for it. This is great! Another way I fit in, right?
Doubts start creeping into my mind when I look at interpersonal relationships around me. A lot of women I know see it as something to "get over with." They let their husbands "do what they need" so that they can both go back to dealing with life. I've heard of men who are so into studying that having sex with their wives it like some chore-some second rate way to spend the time. And I start to identify due to past experience and I feel scared.
My husband wouldn't have sex with me.He knew how important it was for me to share my love in that way, he knew that my sexual desires were higher than an average woman. I couldn't have been more vulnerable-to stand before him and ask him to touch me, to make love to me-and he wouldn't. I can't begin to tell you the shame I felt. How unattractive I thought I was. I blamed myself because I had two children close together, and my body had changed, etc. As soon as I wasn't a trophy to show off, he lost interest. It took a very long time for me to realize that it wasn't my fault. He witheld all physical affection-even hugging-as a way to control and manipulate me. He painted me as insatiable and made me feel ashamed of my desires. We seperated four years ago. This one subject is the only thing that I feel insecure about and that still brings tears to my eyes. I hover above my pre-pregnancy weight-afraid if I look perfect that I couldn't decipher who was interested in my soul and who just wanted my body. I'm going to get pregnant again-I'm going to have times when my figure isn't sexy, and it's important to be with one who will love me no matter what.
When it comes to my marriage, I don't want to hide my desires. I don't want to be so modest that I can't walk naked in my bedroom or bathe in front of my husband. I understand that there may be different expectations during niddah. I want to feel free to experiment, but I'm afraid to let my sensual side show. Well, how can I let it show at all? If I can, when is it appropriate? Will the man think that I'm immodest should I wish to openly talk about our mutual sexual needs in how they would relate to our marriage? If I asked to hold hands or kiss before accepting a proposal, would that be seen as immoral and make the man withdrawl his offer? How can I tell who would appreciate my openess about sex and who would be compatible in a sphere that is shomer negiah?
posted by Above Rubies @ 3:04 PM
6 Comments:
Somehow, I don't think your rebbitzen would mind your asking questions. If they can handle bedikah questions, they can deal with anything! "Is it okay if I ask about x?" has worked for me. It's NATURAL for a convert or BT to be curious, and it's usually pretty easy to tell if the person you're asking is getting uncomfortable. Someone who is experienced in dealing with people like us is not going to be judgmental. Really. :) www.yoatzot.org and www.mayimrabim.com are good sites. I've been told that the RenReb (renegaderebbetzin.blogspot.com) will answer this kind of question, although I haven't tried asking myself. There are also several books, although I haven't quite been brave enough to actually go to the local bookstore and buy one.
I don't think that "sex is a chore" is a common attitude among Orthodox men-- particularly since Judaism places such emphasis on how a husband must give his wife pleasure in that way.
I've heard that there are some groups on the far right where it wouldn't be okay to walk naked in a bedroom, but I don't think you'd be happy there for other reasons. (It's not for me either.)
One of the things you might want to spend some time thinking about is how you feel about shomer negia. Holding hands or kissing before marriage would be violating shomer negia. Some people do it; I don't know how common it is. Asking about it seems to be along the lines of asking someone if they had premarital sex... I'm sure it happens in the Orthodox world, but I'd never actually ask someone if they'd done it.
I'm learning that you can tell a lot of things about a man indirectly. If the man is someone who pays attention to your likes and dislikes and seems genuinely interested in pleasing you, then why wouldn't that general attitude of consideration apply to kissing or the bedroom? After one almost erotic stare-down that resulted in my having to walk out of the (very public) room, I realized that you can absolutely tell if a man is physically attracted without holding hands.
One of the things I really like about shomer negia and obeying the laws of yichud is that it really increases the anticipation. Little things also become very meaningful. The last time I saw my bochur, he put his hand on the back of my chair barely two inches away from my shoulder as he said goodbye. It was unbelievably tender and intimate... and respectful at the same time. My body reacted as if he had caressed me. And this was the reaction of a woman who had been fairly wild when she was younger. I've really enjoyed learning how to be innocent again and how to connect with the mind and soul rather than the body.
Ahuva- I certainly can relate to the value of being Shomer negiah, the power of just looking into one's eyes but without touching. It is an admirable path to follow. That said, I couldn't believe how many divorced people (in the frum circle) were having eh, negiah, so too speak. It took me a while to assimilate this. Although not perfect in my pre-marriage courtship, I felt there were lines that were not to be crossed. Maybe times have changed or maybe people are more open about their escapades.
I think there are two levels of religion. There is the ideal espoused in doctrine and from the pulpit and there is what the grass roots, the people, do. I noticed this in other areas. When my rabbi would declare laws and levels of required adherence from the pulpit, he was stringent. Yet, in private, he weighed very carefully a persons emotional needs and found room (within Halachah) for exceptions that would never be acceptable publicly.
So too, negiah. It's a NO-NO. But everybody has their different level of abilities to overcome the trials presented to them. Ultimately, there are no negiah police (thank God).
I have to relate to you that my ex and I had the attraction you described while not getting very physical only to find out that she had little interest in the bedroom during the marriage. It is important to know if you are emotionally, religiously AND physically compatible for a better chance of success in a relationship.
I certainly remember how exciting things were when my life was more innocent. The ache before the first touch. Although, I wonder how I will last. I may be married a week after I'm engaged! Is it way too overwhelmming to have sex on one's wedding night when one is trembling just to be touched? A sensory overload?
I don't know yet if I'm opposed to hand holding or kissing-at a certain point when the commitment has been made-but I do want to wait until I'm married to make love again.
To Smoo....considering that I'm not a virgin and know that I enjoy sex, does that make a difference?
I think it's definitely more difficult to be SN after experiencing sex and intimacy. I also think that you should be able to be completely uninhibited with your future husband-- I will settle for nothing less. To be completely uninhibited means you and youre spouse are completely open with each other. That doesn't mean going to the bathroom with the door open, etc.. but it means being free enough with your body with your spouse and at the same time vulnerable, and safe.
From my latest blog post you can see that I have learned a valuable lesson recently. But I agree that hand holding and kissing is definitely okay when you are both pretty on the same page.
Having one frum guy say that "uninhibited" is cool is enough to give me hope that more feel the same way. Boruch Hashem! I may not scare everyone off after all...
Check out this forum, it should alleviate most of your fears while showing a range of frum observances:
http://calmkallahs.com/bb/viewforum.php?f=3
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