Synagogue Etiquette
I went to visit another shul today, one that I've gone to twice before. It's smaller, but I'm trying to get around and meet new people. I also thought that it wouldn't hurt for various Rabbi's to see my face before I meet with the vaad.
I'm feeling very uptight about what happened there and I wonder if I'm missing something. Everyone talked. I'm not talking about a whisper here or there-a "what did he say?" or a child coming in for his mother. I'm not some kind of shul visiting soup-nazi who thinks one should hear a pin drop. Part of what I like about shul is that it's family centered. It reminds me of times I've spent in Latin America or Europe where people aren't freaks about a baby out in public. When I say everyone talked, I mean everyone talked. Half of it was in Yiddish, so I had no idea what the conversation was, but I knew it wasn't related to the service. I'm talking about every conversation from cholent recipes, to Disney vacations, to who was shtupping his secretary. I heard them all. And not just in the middle of any old prayer. During the entire Torah reading. The ENTIRE Torah reading and Haftorah. (Not just during the aliyahs like at every other shul) I felt angry. My skin was burning-I just wanted to turn around and shush-and I'm not the kind of girl who would do such a thing.
It wasn't just the women. There were groups of men standing in groups schmoozing during the reading as well. It was so horrible that the Rabbi talked about it for twenty minutes before going into his sermon. (Is that what one calls it at temple? Or is a Divrei Torah or something?) He mentioned how we know not to talk excessively in a library or hospital and that Hashem deserves our respect as well. Along with the other congregants. They deserve it too. He also said there is nothing wrong with coming to socialize-just to do it at kiddush. I felt this was reasonable.
So, guess what happened for the last 30 minutes of the service? Do you think people were quiet? They were worse than before the sermon! I could not hear anything for the last 15 minutes. I felt cheated. The rejuvenated feeling I usually have after shul had turned into anger and resentment. I'm not fluent in Hebrew, so it's even more important for me to hear every word so I don't lose my place.
I recently heard of a shul on Long Island that makes the congregants sign a paper saying that they won't talk. For any reason. If they're seen talking, the President gets up and escorts them out. Although that sounds like a great idea to me after today, I'm a reaonable person. I get lost and have to ask where we are once in a while. Hebrew can be said amazingly fast. My kids come in and need something. I want shul to be family oriented. I want to see the babies crawling around and the toddlers running to their dads when it's time to kiss whatever all that stuff is in the ark. My kids refer to it as candy time. I get tears in my eyes when I see a father with all of his children going up to the ark-it's beautiful and I don't want to lose moments like that.
So, does that I mean that I just have to deal with this incessant chatting? Is it like this everywhere? I feel that I could learn a lot from this Rav. I just don't think I can go back, and it's unfortunate because there are a lot of kids there and it's younger/more liberal and it would be healthy for me to see this side of Orthodoxy as well. There were other huge disappointments today, but I'm just not ready to let it all out at this moment, so it will have to wait for my next post. Please let me know if my expectations are too high...
posted by Above Rubies @ 10:14 PM
11 Comments:
Someone once described this to me in the following manner. When in the presence of royalty, we are awestruck and so afraid to break etiquette that we behave and are silent. The relationship Jews feel towards G-d is one of Heavenly Father. We feel so close, like a family, that we act in such a comfortable, relaxed manner (except maybe Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur when God is acting as Judge).
That said, I don’t really believe that entitles us to disrespect the services or God. Certainly, there is only room for improvement because it can’t get worse. This is apparently a universal problem in the ortho community. I just try my best to tune everyone out and not respond unless absolutely necessary. You’ll have to get used to it, unfortunately.
VBG I'm glad you mention people 'going through the motions' but not FEELING it. Unfortunately, that's how most people are- very superficial. Those people can't grasp the intensity and depth of others who are more in-tuned, thus all the rebuke by the Rabbi go by the wayside.
I feel bad for those who don't access their spirituality and live a mechanical existence. Yet, I can't change who they are. I have long gotten past being upset by that which cannot be changed.
I seek out friends, shuls, environments that allow my spirit to soar, my mind to engage and my heart to love. If that shul makes you angry, too much negative energy- move on to another.
Chutzpah-You scared me more than my Rav! I'm screwed -I already signed my lease...LOL
My regular shul has some talking-but nothing like this one. I was wondering if that amount of talking was normal.
I really understand why you're all warning me-trust me, I've thought things through. It has taken me years to get to this point, and I need support, not reasons why I shouldn't. Nothing that one could tell me will make me change my mind about being Jewish. I don't tend to be that open about how I feel, but I already am Jewish. I haven't gone t the mikvah, I haven't studies for years in a Yeshiva-but my soul is inherently Jewish. I just have difficulty with more of the social side of Judaism. It doesn't mean that I can't accept it-I only know what I see in my own community. There may be things that I never like or understand, but I feel the rewards are much greater than the detriments. My eyes are wide open. I want your advice-all of it-but at this point I don't need to be asked if "I'm sure."
Dealing with dirty people or talking people or whatever else I may question or kvetch about isn't enough to turn me away. I'm just hoping for insight to see how to cope with it-or to make sure I'm not imagining that these things are actually happening...
Above Rubies, people still ask me if I'm sure I want to be orthodox. Really, it's just an opportunity to re-examine why you're doing this and remember all the positive things about this lifestyle.
I think it's safe to say that if the rabbi lectured the congregation, then it was definitely NOT a normal noise level. I've only been to one shul where that was an issue; most aren't too bad.
I'm of Hungarian decent. My great-grandmother is from a shtetl in Galicia...
Jewish ancestry and a Conservative uncle and aunt??? You sure you need to convert?
AR,
I'm sorry that you had this negative experience. I hope it doesn't qualify as a Chilul Hashem, a desecration of G-d's name.
Unfortunately, most shuls have this situation to one degree or another. I'd like to think it's avoidable, but I think that ultimately, the best that can be hoped for is to minimize it, not eliminate it.
I won't tell you I've never "shmoozed" during services; I have. But I try to make sure that if I do talk, it's not the bulk of the time.
I'm a shul latecomer and a back-bencher. I admit it, OK? I'll roll in at ten o'clock, when they are in mid-krias haTorah (I have a semi-reasonable excuse, I pick my child up from my ex's house, and youth groups start at ten). But then I daven. I don't waltz in, sit down, and start talking baseball or mortgage rates (actually, the talk in my shul lately is the latest divorce).
This past Shabbos I came in my usual time and began to daven catch-up, during laining. A row ahead of me, two guys (one of whom I consider a friend) were bantering constantly. It was intruding on my prayers; I wanted to give them a hearty "Shhhh!"... but I didn't. I knew it would do no good, and then I'd get the, "who does he think he is?" look.
In larger communities, this problem is mostly in the "main" services; there are often earlier-held services, that women and kids usually don't go to, where people just want to daven quickly and efficiently and sincerely. Not as much ceremony, though.
That's the men; as far as women goes, I think some women may feel that they are set in the back, somewhat removed from the action, and if they talk, well, they aren't involved in the services anyway, and it's not as obtrusive, so they don't feel conspicuous about talking.
Chutzpah, why are you scaring the girl? Modern Orthodox homes are not "pishy" and filthy. I think you may be trying to refer to the more "yeshivish" homes, where it is not unusual to have 5, 6, 7 kids-- and even then, you are likely generalizing. And being MO is not so overwhelmingly difficult. Not easy, no no no-- but chill out. She can still feel the wind in her hair if she wants.
Anon-I can get into the ancestry thing in a nother post. I can't prove anything. My aunt in NY converted Orthodox, but they are conservative.
NJG-I'm a latecomer myself. Same reasons-Junior Congregation doesn't start until 10. I've only been at the beginning of Shacharis twice-but I'm a girl! Ha ha
Seriously, thanks for the optimism. It's nice to know I will be able to sneak out at night and feel the wind in my hair.
I'm also happy to hear that being MO means I won't have to visit many more homes that smell like urine. I'll let the dirty kids have playdates at my house (I'm sure they'll bring their own snacks) and I'll throw them in the tub while they're over....
Two thoughts:
I'll echo NJG on how to avoid the talking - frequent the non-main services. The Hashkama (early), young couples/professionals/etc, and other auxiliary minyanim at most shuls have a much lower tolerance for talking. It's almost as if people feel that the ceremony and sermons of the main services invite talking, since they shlep out the davening. I've always felt that we should learn from Churches on decorum - (on tv at least) no one ever talks during services.
Regarding ancestry, Galicia and Hungary are not the same in the Jewish idiom. Hungary in the Jewish mindset includes most of the old Austro-Hungarian Empire: what is now Austria and the Czech Republic (the Oberlanders), Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania. Although Galicia was part of the Empire, it is now mostly Poland and Ukraine. "Galitzianers" and Polish Jews (especially Polish Hassidim, ie- Belz) overlap, but Hungarians are a different breed.
Shmilda-Thanks for your reply. I'm glad you stumbled upon me-I'm sure that I can learn a lot from you.
As for shul, I will look for the earlier services when alone. When I have the kids I will just have to deal with the chatting. Where I usually daven there isn't much of an issue. I notice the men chatting more than the women!
In church it is very quiet. I like how free shul can feel-it's ok to get up and get a chumash, get the kids, etc. In church, everyone would stare. I think that church is quieter (and it's not just on tv) because an ordinary Sunday service lasts about an hour. An hour and a half would be absolute tops-and that's for Christmas or Easter. It's easier to sit still for a short period of time.
The Galicia thing gets confusing-with all of the border changes. There is a Rabbi who is a scholar in Austro-Hungarian history who is helping me. The census states that she considered herself to be Hungarian, but both she and her husband spoke German. My grandmother remembered another language when she was younger. In PA, many of the Hungarians that came around the turn of the century where very lower class and did hard labour. I think that my family spoke German to try to differentiate themselves. My grandmother was raised Catholic, as was my mother.
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